Filip.S.

If God is all knowing, he knows the future. Since the future hasn't happened he must set the future to happened. If he set the future then any action that is made in the present was preset by God. In this case you are not responsible for your actions.

If you say God did not made the future but he knows what your actions or reactions going to be them he must made me in way that I react certain way to certain issue.

If God knew that Adolf Hitler was going to commit all those crime, then why did he allow such monster to exist at first place? And if everyone has the right of live and freedom why 6 million Jews didn't have the same right?

What is God justifications of millions dying in the hand of one men, Mussolini, Hitler, Khomeini, Saddam, Muhammad, Moses, Cesar etc ....

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Last Breath

How do you come to that conclusion?? How did you relate knowing to Setting the future/acting?
Logically = Can God know the future but not set it?
If God knows all it doesnt mean he necessarily SETs the future to happen.

He made you/us so that we have a choice. How you react depends on what choice YOU make.
YOU decide to walk/talk/eat/slap yourself/touch your elbow with your tongue (im sure everyones tried it and failed) ....

LETS AGREE on what you said for a minute:
God made me in a certain way to react to certain issues which he knows all about.
Now what?
Does that change anything? Does that limit me in any way ??
I still do what I want . . . I change my thoughts a million times and no one interferes with any of it . . . its just me.
Choice and Decision.
That shows that we are free to do even the most horrible things. Whoever comes out with the right choices, prospers.
No one says that they dont have the right to live.
Heres a better question & an answer to yours;

Was it not the Europeans that commited those atrocities?? They were the ones who were the enemies.
Why come to the Middle East??
Why did they choose to OCCUPY a Arab State?? Why not a country in Europe (ofcourse that is also not acceptable)??

THIS IS WHAT EVERYONE IS AGAINST! OCCUPATION & TYRANNY

Let me stop you right there.
Why does God have to Justify anything??
Should you not hold the people who CHOSE to do those acts responsible?? They DECIDED to do them using their own WILL, they could not have if THEY wanted to...

Humans have the power of choice. Without it they are worth nothing.
If God knows what they will choose it doesnt mean that God is the one responsible, or that, just because God knows what we will do that means We have no choice.

Filip.S.

Three major religions, Islam, Judaism and Christianity believe that God is Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnipresent.

If God created the past, present and future he set it the way he want it to be. If he knows what I am going to do in 1 hours from posting this reply then he must set the universe in certain way that I will do certain things at the exact time. If there is a free will and I can do anything; then there are millions different scenario of what I am going to do in 1 hour.

If he knows all the millions scenario that I may choose then he is not all powerful and knowing because even he is not sure which of the millions actions I may chose.

So does he know in advance about all your million thoughts?

If your answer is yes then the question is how can God know something that hasn't happened yet? Does he know what an Ant in the middle of amazon is going to be at let say Feb 12 2009 at 12:23:10 ?

Now to your other point. Israel was and is a Jewish territory. Some of it is their land and some of it the bought is legally. This is a different subject i will not go more into it.

Why not he is the one that wants me to worship him so he need to prove why he is worthy of being worshiped. He wants something from me not vise versa. I don't ask for anything from him. I didn't send my messenger to ask him for anything. He went out of his way to send messenger to tell me what to do and what not to do the funny part is that he is no different then Hitler. Do as I say or I kill you or in his instance send you to hell.

This sound to me exactly like a Tyrant.

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Last Breath

Again, why do you say SET ?? He made the times, but what happens in the times are mostly dependant on the choice of the human. (is it possible? Ofcourse it is)
Is it impossible for him to create the times, know the future (our decision) and at the same time give us free will ??

He knows all the million thoughts and he knows which one you/me choose. This doesnt mean that he does it.
(prove me otherwise - logically and in this example- )

YES

He has FULL and COMPLETE knowledge over all his creations.
Again, having this KNOWLEDGE doesnt mean that he does it. He knows.
Yes it is a different subject, I wonder why you brought it up?
And just so you know the buying is just a cover-up, yes they bought SOME lands but most of the country ?? Not reasonable with whatever Logic ... So yeah lets move on.
1- He doesnt WANT anything from us.
2- He doesnt have to prove his worthiness (eventhough he does and has)

His worth would not be proven if he MADE me do something. Actually the opposite.
He is worthy of worship because with all the power that he has, he has given free will and the OPTION to believe or not. Which Master does that ??

Free Will is something that doesnt need any previous knowledge.
Everyone knows that humans have Free Will and Choice.
Do you agree with that?
IF YES...
Is it -logically- impossible for a being to know what you think and to know your choice. While still having free will ?

These two questions are crucial.
(If you want to ask questions dont forget to answer these)

Filip.S.

First of all let define knowing.

I have a son, I know if I represent him with 3 different choice of games he will chose a first person shooter game and this is due to experience. However I have no knowledge of what is he going to do in 20 years.

A broad knowledge of someone based of personal character is possbile but to for seen the future is not. However we are talking about human and limited power.

Second of all let define future.

When I go with my wife to a dinner; by looking at the menu I can guess with good probability what she is going to order. However i don't know what she is going eat in 20 years.

If I leave from destination A to B; I can probably assume that I will arrive at destination B at certain time. Did I know for see the future or just have basic knowledge of the route and distance. But do I know where I am going to be in the future? No.

So we can agree that future hasn't happened. Yet to be able to know the future and keeping in mind that Everything in the world has a unlimited probable outcome God has the knowledge of an unlimited among of action / reaction of Everything in the world.

Yet only one is the correct answer. Which this make him not all knowing because he has to have an unlimited knowledge of Everything to be able to know which one is the actual action in which if he at first place knew the right answer he wouldn't need to have the knowledge of all the other possibility.

All knowing God is an contradiction to it self. saying God is ALL knowing is as you say I am married but single.

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Last Breath

First you havent answered 2 of my questions in the last post!

Knowing is the same knowing that you gave in your example but it is 100% and in a much greater scale -> Unlimited.

The future is whatever happens after the present time. So basically God knows ALL.
Right now we dont need to know what is correct or wrong.
But now that you brought it up, we can havwe more than 1 Correct choice and Yes he has knowledge of every possible thing.

Huh ??!
A All knowing God is a contradiction? How ?
I dont get the relation to the example!

Person X cant be (1)Single and (2) Married. I understand (because (1)&(2) refer to a single thing i.e. being married or not)

But Person X can be (1)ALL knowing and (2)Creator at the same time (because (1)&(2) refer to two different subjects)

Filip.S.

In order for God to know the future and the exact event aka action he must have unlimited amount of knowledge and possible outcomes. Which means that he is not capable to know the correct answer without knowing the other possible answers. Another question would be can God know what hate means without hating anyone? and if he does know hate than he can not be all merciful.

To consider another example, is God capable of “knowing” suffering? Once again, some theistic systems have imagined gods capable of all manner of suffering and privation; philosophical theism, however, has always imagined a perfect God who is beyond such experiences. It is inconceivable to believers in such a god that it would ever suffer — even though humans are obviously quite capable of it.

Now to free will. If humans have free will and they are absolutely free to chose any action without limitation than God doesn't know my actions. If he does know my actions; since I have not taken them yet than the actions must pre-destined which means he made the future to be. In this case I did not chose my action but he did. In this case or God doesn't know the future which makes him not All knowing, or he does and I do not have free will.

Yes it is. And I have explained it previously.

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ramin29

Miduni filip jan, ye moshkele asasi ke lastbreath darand ine ke tasavore daghighi az in khodayi ke miparastand nadarand, ine ke nemitunand baraye khodeshun ham moshakhas konand daneshe khoda chejurie.

yeki az dalayeli ke man un threade khoda chist ro zadam in bud ke neshun bedam dindarha aksaran nemidunand vaghean chio miparstan va khodashun che sefati ro chejuri dare, ine ke tu bahsaye mokhtalef khodashun az ye khodaye ensanvar ta ye khodaye vahdate vojudi motafavet zaher mishe, yani tarife khodashun mesle jelly modam motaghayyere va in dar halie ke khodayi ke ghoran tarif mikone ba khodayi ke ina miagan dar kheili mavared motafavet va gahan motazadde.

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من درد مشترکم، مرا فریاد کن

Last Breath

Okay ill make it REALLY clear for you and Ramin.

The relation that we are trying to prove or disprove is between knowing and acting. Does knowing something mean I am the one doing the action?

Knowledge. I know that gravity pulls everything to itself. Because of this...
When you throw a ball in the air, I KNOW that it WILL come down.

Now, does this mean that ive done the action ??

Its very similar with God but in a much larger scale.
He knows me. He knows everything there is to know. So he knows how I think and the choices that I make when I am confronted with options. This doesnt mean that he does it!

If you dont agree with my example or conclusion, Quote me and tell me where im wrong. Thats how we can have a beneficial discussion.



Zemnan Agha Ramin, shoma har tor raahatid darbareye man fekr konid, hich khiali nist.

Tuye threadetun ham ke bahsi surat nagereft. Agar dalil darid, bahs konid . . . Eh! . . . goftam bahs?? . . .
Aaakh, yadam umad . . . Rast migid, man nemidunam khodai ke miparastam che sefati dare. Bekhatere hamine ke zaatan bahso shoru mikonam, bad vasatesh mizaram miram (Inja ya hatta tu Threade khodam).

Hagh ba shomast

Filip.S.

Last Breath; let examine your example. Since we know there is a gravity the ball will come back down. Yet the gravity must be there in order for the ball to come down.

With your example you actually proved my theory. While I am the one throwing the ball up the gravity pulls it down. If God is also powerful he is the one that created gravity.

The action was my but because of his creation of gravity the reaction is that the ball comes down. If you remember I set it earlier he set up the future to happened in way he believes is correct.

Now let take this ball to outer space. If we throw the ball in the otter space we can not predict where, and how its path going to be. Because we have no knowledge of the force in place. Yet if God knows the path of the ball it mean he has created a force that is invisible to us that will giude the ball to it destination. If you say the ball will fly random in the space then God can not predict its path either.

So in this case he is not all knowing. God can not function under probability and certainty at the same time.

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